Source for color chips for Irish and Willow Green?

[Richard Casto]

I am about three months away from having my car acid dipped. I am going to repaint the car the original color, however there is an outstanding issue of what its exact color is. The Karmann badge is marked “L63E” which according to all of the excellent work that has been done here, there was a mid model year change and this is a late 1972 code for “Willow Green” (L63K). The only problem is that the paint on the car looks just like all photos I have seen of “Irish Green” (L60E) (looks like a British racing green to me).

Note that I say “photos” as I haven’t seen the color in person and photos and HTML color values can’t be relied upon. So ideally I am wondering how hard it is to obtain a color chip of those two colors for comparison purposes. My first thought is that someone like PPG might provide color chips. Or I might be able to visit a paint shop and see a color chip.

Anyone have any ideas or tips on how to resolve this? I really like the color that is on the car now (actually under the horrible color change that a previous owner did) and would like to replicate the original color. I have no doubts that the green I am seeing is the original color as I am about 90% done with stripping the car down and I am pulling apart stuff that I am sure has never been disassembled and I am seeing that same darker green. I need to get this resolved before all physical paint evidence is dissolved in the acid bath (Karmann badge is being pulled off prior to acid bath).

FYI. I am sending off for the COA tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what it says. Here is a link to some photos of the Karmann badge and surrounding paint.
http://motorsport.zyyz.com/project_914_03.htm

[Gustl]

get "Colour Chart 1971" (W29-100-0870-0104)

there are paint samples of both colours in it ...

[Gustl]

same for

"Colour Chart 1972" (W43-100-0771-0104)

and

"1972 Porsche Colors" (36-70-22021)

[davep]

Here is a scan from my 1972 color chart showing the two side by side. According to this they are different. When I scanned the page, the color lightened up a lot, and I had to tweak the image a bit to get it to look closer to the printed page. On the printed page the Irish green looks decidedly dark, almost black.

On your car, the removable strut supporting the cowl below the windshield, how does it look in the backside. Is it a good sample of the original?

[Richard Casto]

Wolfgang, It's been a long day, so I am a bit slow at the moment, but I assume those are Porsche "part" numbers for each chart and that you can order those via a dealership?

Dave, My concern is that there may be differences between how our monitors are calibrated, so photos may look different on different monitors. But I did snap a photo of that brace next to your scanned image on my monitor. I cleaned it up with a bit of rubbing compound and there is a few speckles of overspray of the bronze paint that someone used to paint over the green, but otherwise that strut is a good sample of the color.

To my eyes, it looks to be inbetween the two, but very close to the Irish Green (almost as dark, but not quite).

[Gustl]

Wolfgang, It's been a long day, so I am a bit slow at the moment, but I assume those are Porsche "part" numbers for each chart and that you can order those via a dealership?

Richard, these are Porsche print numbers
the color charts are vintage and NLA - I've found them on eBay

[Richard Casto]

Richard, these are Porsche print numbers
the color charts are vintage and NLA - I've found them on eBay

Ok, the NLA make sense. I was thinking "You can just order those from the dealer??". :D :rolleyes: I will keep a watch out for those on eBay.

[davep]

Richard, you are quite correct about the monitor calibration. However, the screen shot looks to be accurate. I know there is a L63K car in my area. I don't know of any Irish green ones though. All I can go on is the color chart, and of course they definitely show that L63E is not the same as L60E. Further, L63E and L63K have the same names.

Your paint supplier should have a set of color chips for VW with which to compare. At least they should be able to provide a mixed sample of both to test. Even a pint of the wrong color can be used for a first coat on the bottom of the pan.

I am trying to get a full set of those struts in all the colors as samples. Yours is the only one I know in the L63E color. Is there any way to beg, buy or steal it? I can probably find a replacement to trade. I just want to get an original sample of every color.

[Richard Casto]

Dave,

When you asked about the color of that strut yesterday and I pulled it off the car for that photo, a light bulb went off over my head. As you mentioned, I can easily get and repaint a replacement strut and keep the original as is. So, I am going to hold on to that strut at least through getting the car repainted. I will have to think about if I want to keep it after it has been repainted.

So far I am still convinced that it is not painted Willow Green. I think the next questions are...

1. Was my Karmann badge mismarked (paint is right, badge is wrong) or was it painted the wrong color (badge is right, paint is wrong). COA "might" shed some light on this.

2. Is the Porsche color charts wrong (i.e. L63E is not really Willow Green)? Is there any precedence for this? Especially as this is a mid model year change and so far not many people seem to have this paint code?

In addition to trying to find a Porsche chart on eBay, I am going to look into getting some paint samples of those two colros from a local paint supplier as well as them doing a color match to the strut to see what it might come up with.

[davep]

Keep the strut for reference at least until the car is redone, and repaint with a different strut in place.

The Karmann badge can be wrong, sometimes in conjunction with the body number also being wrong. The car 'cannot' be painted wrong.

I have not known the charts to be wrong. At one time I thought that the L63E was wrong because that page was the only reference to it. Now I know that L63E is a valid code. So I know of no discrepancies.

Please check everywhere to be sure that the green you see is the correct color and was not repainted Irish on top of Willow. Up in the steering rack tunnel for instance.

BTW, I'm not really in favor of acid dipping. Too hard to neutralize acid that gets wicked into the seams. Since the car was just spot welded overlap seams, it means a lot of place for acid to penetrate, and weep out years later.

[bleyseng]

Irish Green 914/6 original paint!

I agree to not dip the car, have it soda blasted

[Paul Naberhaus]

.........

BTW, I'm not really in favor of acid dipping. Too hard to neutralize acid that gets wicked into the seams. Since the car was just spot welded overlap seams, it means a lot of place for acid to penetrate, and weep out years later.

I absolutely concur with Dave about acid dipping a car. Over the 30+ years of being around Porsche enthusiasts by virtue of my 914 ownership, I've seen 356s, early 911s and a 914 "dipped" to remove as much old paint, road deposits and rust as possible. Years after this treatment and the restoration, wonder of wonders, paint starts deteriorating and coming off at seams in (typically) out of the way places. Now it has been awhile since I've seen this happen, but neutralizing the paint removing process seems to be the problem here. As Dave points out, years pass before the insidious effects of tiny traces of acid residue make themselves apparant.

[Richard Casto]

...to not dip the car...

First, thanks for the concern. I really do appreciate it. I am on the fence on what to do and it has been driving me nuts for months.

I have heard nothing but bad things when this topic comes up on forums, but so far my experience is that it is 100% second hand stories and I have yet to run across a post from someone who had this done to their own car that gives it thumbs up or down. I know of one single local person who I have talked to directly who has had this done (Subaru Rally car) and he is happy with the results. However, it has only been a few years since this was done. So I guess the jury is still out on his car.

When I talk to people at the local company that did the car mentioned above, they are aware of the "acid leach" perception, but they say that the acid will be neutralized and it is not something I need to worry about if I prep the car properly prior to painting it. Their take on the issue is that the process removes all of the seam sealant and that people don’t replace that. And that these unprotected seams are not sealed via the paint that is applied and this traps and/or collects moisture and that “IF” they generate rust at the seams, it is not due to leaching acid, but rather rust due to unprotected metal being exposed to the elements somehow. So there is a lot of finger pointing going on and I don’t know what the real story is.

But! I am actively looking into finding someone local who has experience in doing soda and/or dry ice media blasting. And most likely, if the cost is reasonable I am leaning toward the non-sand (soda or dry ice) media blasting as so far I can’t find anyone saying anything negative about those processes. I can find plenty of bad comments about media blasting with sand.
:D

[davep]

One experience with soda blasting on the east coast.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=20084

[Richard Casto]

Dave,

That is a great thread. It gives me more confidence on the blasting vs. dip (I am going to have it blasted). It is also inspiring to see his car clean and with primer on it. It gives me a good kick in the pants to get back working on the car.

Back to the color issue... Oddly enough my COA showed up in the mail yesterday. It lists the color as "Irish Green/1510" (which is what I think the car is).

Richard

[davep]

Very interesting. Can you scan and post your COA please? It may be interesting to enquire as to what paint code L63E translates to. Obviously something is wrong somewhere. Did the Karmann badge get an incorrect code? Does my literature have incorrect information? I do believe that the L63E code does exist, and on the 914 it is rare. Exactly what color it is, is the mystery. I do believe your COA helps to solve this mystery.

[Richard Casto]

I don't have my scanner hooked up at home, but will find one here at work and scan it. I happened to have the COA with me here at work so I did a quick cell phone photo. It's not the best, but it gives you something until I find a scanner. :D

[wayneh]

http://homepage.mac.com/markd/914/colors.html

[davep]

Not as accurate nor as complete as our own list found here:

http://www.roadglue.com/wiki/index.php/Exterior_color